Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)

Discussion:

Dennis E. Hamilton

2012-12-14 16:55:30 UTC

@Tom,

What do you mean by "Win8 ready?"

Do you mean integration with multi-touch, the additional UI provisions, or what?

If you mean certified for Windows 8, it will depend on whether the requirements for that have been worked through. I know of no reason why LibreOffice can't achieve that. I don't know if it has been done. I'd be very surprised if older versions of Office don't already satisfy the essential requirements.

If you mean compatible with Windows 8, anything that is compatible with Windows 7 should work.

I just ran the Windows 8 Upgrade Advisor on my aging Tablet PC, running Windows XP SP3. It turns out that I can't upgrade because the processor on that machine does not have hardware NX support, and Windows 8 requires it as part of the tighter security with which it operates.

However, on the review of software that needed to be upgraded or that is not supported, Office 2007 was listed as Compatible. In addition, on that particular machine, the Upgrade Advisor listed this software as compatible:

OpenOffice.org 3.4.1
Apache Software Foundation

I'm confident, when I run the Windows 8 Upgrade Advisor where I have LibreOffice installed, I will see a similar encouraging result.

- Dennis

PS: You can purchase boxed Microsoft Office 2013. It is very pricey. Here, we'll be renting, since one single lease will cover all of our multiple household machines and provide all of the Office components used here. It will be much easier to have the same version of Office on all systems going forward. It was too expensive to do that before.

Some Personal Windows 8 Preparations:

Something else I'm doing to prepare cutting over full to Windows 8 (with older Windows and with Linux running in VMs for my document forensics work). Logitech makes a Wireless Rechargeable Touchpad that provides multi-touch gestures and other features. I am going to use it to replace my mouse on Windows 7 and also confirm it with Windows 8 ahead of fully upgrading to Windows 8:
<http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/touchpad-t650>

On Windows 7, there are multi-touch gestures that can work to zoom, scroll, etc.

On Windows 8, additional touch features supported by the operating system will also work. This allows me to keep my primary desktop system and its non-touch 30" monitor.

The touchpad should be superior to working with only a mouse and knowing all the keyboard shortcuts that make Windows 8 operable without touch (and useful, though, for accessibility and integration with assistive devices). I expect that LibreOffice integration should be fine, the same as for Windows 7. (I also have added Office 2013 Preview installed on Windows 8, but I haven't put it through its paces there. I don't know if there are additional Windows 8 behaviors or if it also runs essentially the same as on Windows 7.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Davies [mailto:***@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 05:00
To: ubuysa; ***@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin

Hi :)
Is anything Win8 ready? MS Office 2010 and 2007 aren't. With a new platform like that it usually takes a while for people to find work-arounds and even longer for the program to update to integrate better. For MSO that will probably involve sitting out their newest version, MSO 365 and then buy their next one (or rent as i'm not sure you can pay a one-off fee and then keep using 'forever' any more).
Regards from
Tom :)

________________________________
Sent: Friday, 14 December 2012, 9:22
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin
Don,
Thanks for your suggestion, I did do a Google search before posting on here
and none of the replies were terribly helpful.
I have found a temporary solution; setting compatibility mode for
swriter.exe to Windows 7 removes the problem completely. I'm now wondering
whether LO 3.6 is truly Windows 8 ready?
Thank you everyone for helping.
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Tom Davies

2012-12-14 18:44:06 UTC

Permalink

Hi :)
I suspect that "compatible" means that it will work but that gestures and other stuff may not work fully and reliably. Does MSO 2007 support gestures? I doubt it. Some may work if the OS can access the relevant controls. From the original question i got the impression the person meant more than just working adequately and really wanted to know if everything was fully integrated and fully working. Hence why i said i doubt anything is properly fully Win8 ready.

The separate track-pad looks quite nice. Not quite my cupp-tea although i like to play around with things like that for a while sometimes. When i was working in an accountancy practice i would have quite like a separate number-pad but only if it had a Tab key, to jump into the net field without having to reach for the mouse. The only ones i have seen are either thousands of pounds or miss crucial keys such as + and - let alone other useful ones such as Tab.
Regards from
Tom :)

________________________________
Sent: Friday, 14 December 2012, 16:55
Subject: Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)
@Tom,
What do you mean by "Win8 ready?"
Do you mean integration with multi-touch, the additional UI provisions, or what?
If you mean certified for Windows 8, it will depend on whether the requirements for that have been worked through. I know of no reason why LibreOffice can't achieve that. I don't know if it has been done. I'd be very surprised if older versions of Office don't already satisfy the essential requirements.
If you mean compatible with Windows 8, anything that is compatible with Windows 7 should work.
I just ran the Windows 8 Upgrade Advisor on my aging Tablet PC, running Windows XP SP3. It turns out that I can't upgrade because the processor on that machine does not have hardware NX support, and Windows 8 requires it as part of the tighter security with which it operates.
OpenOffice.org 3.4.1
Apache Software Foundation
I'm confident, when I run the Windows 8 Upgrade Advisor where I have LibreOffice installed, I will see a similar encouraging result.
- Dennis
PS: You can purchase boxed Microsoft Office 2013. It is very pricey. Here, we'll be renting, since one single lease will cover all of our multiple household machines and provide all of the Office components used here. It will be much easier to have the same version of Office on all systems going forward. It was too expensive to do that before.
<http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/touchpad-t650>
On Windows 7, there are multi-touch gestures that can work to zoom, scroll, etc.
On Windows 8, additional touch features supported by the operating system will also work. This allows me to keep my primary desktop system and its non-touch 30" monitor.
The touchpad should be superior to working with only a mouse and knowing all the keyboard shortcuts that make Windows 8 operable without touch (and useful, though, for accessibility and integration with assistive devices). I expect that LibreOffice integration should be fine, the same as for Windows 7. (I also have added Office 2013 Preview installed on Windows 8, but I haven't put it through its paces there. I don't know if there are additional Windows 8 behaviors or if it also runs essentially the same as on Windows 7.)
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 05:00
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin
Hi :)
Is anything Win8 ready? MS Office 2010 and 2007 aren't. With a new platform like that it usually takes a while for people to find work-arounds and even longer for the program to update to integrate better. For MSO that will probably involve sitting out their newest version, MSO 365 and then buy their next one (or rent as i'm not sure you can pay a one-off fee and then keep using 'forever' any more).
Regards from
Tom :)

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Dennis E. Hamilton

2012-12-14 19:37:02 UTC

Permalink

There is a difference between what the OS provides when running on the Windows 8 desktop versus running an MX application. So far, I've only seen OneNote MX on what's called the Metro (or Modern) interface.

The MX applications run full screen (or on the side) and the application has to be designed appropriately for it. I'd be surprised if it is practical to do this with the current OpenOffice-descendant code bases, especially for Windows RT, the version for ARM processors.

I think extensive productivity applications will continue to run on the desktop side of Windows 8, at least when the computer keyboard and display form factors make that appealing. Versions designed for touch usage and MX-style will work on smaller form factors, including phones, and depend on the multi-touch gestures more.

LibreOffice, OpenOffice, and Microsoft Office 2013 are desktop applications and benefit from what the OS provides without requiring application cooperation (apart from using the Windows APIs in ways that allows the OS personality to be extended to the application). For some form of inputs, such as accepting "ink," the application has to cooperate. (Windows 8 also supports use of pen and stylus input. The Windows 8 Surface comes with a stylus, but the Windows RT Surface does not. But Windows 7 and the Windows XP Tablet PC editions from 2005 all support this form of input.)

Office 2007 does work with my Tablet PC's features, although I think it is essentially via OS provisions. There may be some accommodation for "ink" from the Tablet PC stylus, but I have not explored that beyond how it works with Office 2007 OneNote.

- Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Davies [mailto:***@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:44
To: ***@acm.org; 'ubuysa'; ***@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)

Hi :)
I suspect that "compatible" means that it will work but that gestures and other stuff may not work fully and reliably. Does MSO 2007 support gestures? I doubt it. Some may work if the OS can access the relevant controls. From the original question i got the impression the person meant more than just working adequately and really wanted to know if everything was fully integrated and fully working. Hence why i said i doubt anything is properly fully Win8 ready.

The separate track-pad looks quite nice. Not quite my cupp-tea although i like to play around with things like that for a while sometimes. When i was working in an accountancy practice i would have quite like a separate number-pad but only if it had a Tab key, to jump into the net field without having to reach for the mouse. The only ones i have seen are either thousands of pounds or miss crucial keys such as + and - let alone other useful ones such as Tab.
Regards from
Tom :)

Jay Lozier

2012-12-14 20:04:13 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
There is a difference between what the OS provides when running on the Windows 8 desktop versus running an MX application. So far, I've only seen OneNote MX on what's called the Metro (or Modern) interface.
The MX applications run full screen (or on the side) and the application has to be designed appropriately for it. I'd be surprised if it is practical to do this with the current OpenOffice-descendant code bases, especially for Windows RT, the version for ARM processors.
I think extensive productivity applications will continue to run on the desktop side of Windows 8, at least when the computer keyboard and display form factors make that appealing. Versions designed for touch usage and MX-style will work on smaller form factors, including phones, and depend on the multi-touch gestures more.
LibreOffice, OpenOffice, and Microsoft Office 2013 are desktop applications and benefit from what the OS provides without requiring application cooperation (apart from using the Windows APIs in ways that allows the OS personality to be extended to the application). For some form of inputs, such as accepting "ink," the application has to cooperate. (Windows 8 also supports use of pen and stylus input. The Windows 8 Surface comes with a stylus, but the Windows RT Surface does not. But Windows 7 and the Windows XP Tablet PC editions from 2005 all support this form of input.)
Office 2007 does work with my Tablet PC's features, although I think it is essentially via OS provisions. There may be some accommodation for "ink" from the Tablet PC stylus, but I have not explored that beyond how it works with Office 2007 OneNote.
- Dennis

It seems to me that Win8 compatibility is harder to pin down. Does it
mean that the software can function using the Metro/Modern/Whatever
interface and the traditional desktop or that it runs in Win8 using some
mode? IMHO this distinct will cause much confusion with people as to
what is meant. Truthfully, I am confused how to properly describe Win8
compatibility and I have been using computers for 30 years plus.

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:44
Subject: Re: Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)
Hi :)
I suspect that "compatible" means that it will work but that gestures and other stuff may not work fully and reliably. Does MSO 2007 support gestures? I doubt it. Some may work if the OS can access the relevant controls. From the original question i got the impression the person meant more than just working adequately and really wanted to know if everything was fully integrated and fully working. Hence why i said i doubt anything is properly fully Win8 ready.
The separate track-pad looks quite nice. Not quite my cupp-tea although i like to play around with things like that for a while sometimes. When i was working in an accountancy practice i would have quite like a separate number-pad but only if it had a Tab key, to jump into the net field without having to reach for the mouse. The only ones i have seen are either thousands of pounds or miss crucial keys such as + and - let alone other useful ones such as Tab.
Regards from
Tom :)

--
Jay Lozier
***@gmail.com

Dennis E. Hamilton

2012-12-14 21:39:08 UTC

Permalink

Jay, I agree.

There are two kinds of compatibility for Windows 8.

First, desktop compatibility is essentially the same as for Windows 7. There is more room for gradual upgrade to integrate more smoothly, including on x64 machines with Atom processors, solid-state drives, and storage in the cloud. I think UX features will also adjust and improve, but that will be relatively gradual.

The second kind of compatibility is determined by whether or not an application is distributed via the Windows Store. As far as I know, that's reserved for MX applications that run on either Windows 8 or Windows RT. I also believe that is the only way a consumer can obtain MX applications that they didn't write themselves. (There are apparently ways for Enterprises to create something like their own stores.)

So yes, there are two levels of capability. The productivity software such as LibreOffice is going to be running on the desktop for a long time. There is a great deal to figure out to see how to deploy on MX successfully. In a way, the same issues arise for Android and iOS as targets for the desktop productivity software that we've been relying upon.

- Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Lozier [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:04
To: ***@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)

--
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Jay Lozier

2012-12-14 21:59:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Jay, I agree.
There are two kinds of compatibility for Windows 8.
First, desktop compatibility is essentially the same as for Windows 7. There is more room for gradual upgrade to integrate more smoothly, including on x64 machines with Atom processors, solid-state drives, and storage in the cloud. I think UX features will also adjust and improve, but that will be relatively gradual.
The second kind of compatibility is determined by whether or not an application is distributed via the Windows Store. As far as I know, that's reserved for MX applications that run on either Windows 8 or Windows RT. I also believe that is the only way a consumer can obtain MX applications that they didn't write themselves. (There are apparently ways for Enterprises to create something like their own stores.)
So yes, there are two levels of capability. The productivity software such as LibreOffice is going to be running on the desktop for a long time. There is a great deal to figure out to see how to deploy on MX successfully. In a way, the same issues arise for Android and iOS as targets for the desktop productivity software that we've been relying upon.
- Dennis

Dennis,

The problem then is properly explaining to Win8 users what they should
expect in terms of compatibility. But even so, I fear a large number of
users will not either pay attention to the vendor statements or be
confused by the MS advertising and believe that all software will work
with the new UI like the advertised apps. It probably will be a lesser
problem with FOSS projects because a higher portion of the user base is
more technically astute. If we are having this discussion then the
majority of users will be confused by this issue. The scenario, IMHO, is
who will the user blame: MS or the software vendor?

IMHO, I think the compatibility definition is caused by MS being
schizophrenic with the OS and trying to make work on tablets/phones and
desktops the same way.

Jay

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:04
Subject: Re: Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)

--
Jay Lozier
***@gmail.com

Dennis E. Hamilton

2012-12-15 02:49:47 UTC

Permalink

Jay,

Yes, user confusion and frustrated expectations do seem to be risks.

I think the bigger problem will be with Windows RT systems, where Windows 7/8 and earlier desktop applications do not run at all.

On Windows 8 systems, having both MX applications and desktop applications may or may not be a difficulty for users. We'll have to see.

Software producers that have both a desktop and an MX version will need to be careful about how things work when both are installed on a Windows 8 machine. There are already examples of that with Internet Explorer, OneNote, Skype, SkyDrive, and Netflix. That's something to think about for LibreOffice too.

- Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Lozier [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 13:59
To: ***@acm.org
Cc: ***@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)

ubuysa

2012-12-15 06:20:37 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jay Lozier
Dennis,
The problem then is properly explaining to Win8 users what they should
expect in terms of compatibility. But even so, I fear a large number of
users will not either pay attention to the vendor statements or be
confused by the MS advertising and believe that all software will work
with the new UI like the advertised apps. It probably will be a lesser
problem with FOSS projects because a higher portion of the user base is
more technically astute. If we are having this discussion then the
majority of users will be confused by this issue. The scenario, IMHO, is

Post by Jay Lozier
who will the user blame

Post by Jay Lozier
: MS or the software vendor?
IMHO, I think the compatibility definition is caused by MS being
schizophrenic with the OS and trying to make work on tablets/phones and
desktops the same way.
Jay

FWIW it wasn't my intention to blame anybody. I had hoped I might be helping
by highlighting what appears to me to be a minor issue with LO3.6 and
Windows 8? I like to think I am more technically astute that the norm,
although now retired I spent over 30 years as a sysprog working with large
IBM mainframe operating systems.

I'm running Windows 8 only because the upgrade price was too good to miss,
other wise I'd have stayed with 7. I'm not using TIFKAM at all (sorry,
TIFKAM - The Interface Formerly Known As Metro) I'm a pure desktop user. I
suspect the vast majority of current Windows 8 users are pretty similar.

I also agree that MS is trying to face two ways at once with Windows 8, the
clunky integration of the desktop into TIFKAM looks to me like a product
rushed to market to prevent MS getting left behind in the rush to tablets.

I appreciate that there will always be a lag on FOSS when the base OS is
upgraded. I asked my original question on here to find out whether this was
a known issue and whether anyone else has seen this (very minor) problem. I
have posted it as a bug though I am still not certain that it's not my
problem after all. My main intention is to help not complain, I'm sorry if
my comment about LO not being Windows 8 ready came across as a complaint.

Thank you all for the help and advice you provide. I wish I were able to
help more but I think my skills are now probably best suited to a museum!

--
View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Windows-8-Compatibility-was-RE-libreoffice-users-Re-0xc0000005-error-in-RPCRT4-dll-from-soffice-bin-tp4024389p4024465.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jay Lozier

2012-12-15 07:52:51 UTC

Permalink

Post by ubuysa

Post by Jay Lozier
who will the user blame

FWIW it wasn't my intention to blame anybody. I had hoped I might be helping
by highlighting what appears to me to be a minor issue with LO3.6 and
Windows 8? I like to think I am more technically astute that the norm,
although now retired I spent over 30 years as a sysprog working with large
IBM mainframe operating systems.
I'm running Windows 8 only because the upgrade price was too good to miss,
other wise I'd have stayed with 7. I'm not using TIFKAM at all (sorry,
TIFKAM - The Interface Formerly Known As Metro) I'm a pure desktop user. I
suspect the vast majority of current Windows 8 users are pretty similar.
I also agree that MS is trying to face two ways at once with Windows 8, the
clunky integration of the desktop into TIFKAM looks to me like a product
rushed to market to prevent MS getting left behind in the rush to tablets.
I appreciate that there will always be a lag on FOSS when the base OS is
upgraded. I asked my original question on here to find out whether this was
a known issue and whether anyone else has seen this (very minor) problem. I
have posted it as a bug though I am still not certain that it's not my
problem after all. My main intention is to help not complain, I'm sorry if
my comment about LO not being Windows 8 ready came across as a complaint.
Thank you all for the help and advice you provide. I wish I were able to
help more but I think my skills are now probably best suited to a museum!

I think you brought a valid issue that needs to be addressed by all
software developers and making sure the end users understand how to use
the software on Win8. It may be less of an issue for most FOSS projects
because of their user base. Where I see a problem is with ordinary
users who may be confused by schizophrenic nature of Win8 and what is
meant by being compatible with it - there are two some what different
definitions. As a Linux user I am not directly affected but I see user
questions about Metro/Modern/Whatever integration vs the traditional
desktop integration occurring.

As I said early if I am confused then think of the confusion of ordinary
users who primarily see advertising and store displays. Given that many
will buy a new computer with Win8 preinstalled and are probably talking
to sales staff marginally more knowledgeable than them I see nothing but
confusion.

Post by ubuysa
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Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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***@gmail.com

Tom Davies

2012-12-15 11:06:29 UTC

Permalink

Hi :)
+1
Thanks for raising the issue. It's something i hadn't thought about either. Some of us get a bit too emotional invested in LO sometimes so i apologise for the tone of my answers.
Thanks, apols and regards from
Tom :)

________________________________
Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2012, 7:52
Subject: Re: Windows 8 Compatibility (was RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: 0xc0000005 error in RPCRT4.dll from soffice.bin)

Post by ubuysa

Post by Jay Lozier
who will the user blame

FWIW it wasn't my intention to blame anybody. I had hoped I might be helping
by highlighting what appears to me to be a minor issue with LO3.6 and
Windows 8? I like to think I am more technically astute that the norm,
although now retired I spent over 30 years as a sysprog working with large
IBM mainframe operating systems.
I'm running Windows 8 only because the upgrade price was too good to miss,
other wise I'd have stayed with 7. I'm not using TIFKAM at all (sorry,
TIFKAM - The Interface Formerly Known As Metro) I'm a pure desktop user. I
suspect the vast majority of current Windows 8 users are pretty similar.
I also agree that MS is trying to face two ways at once with Windows 8, the
clunky integration of the desktop into TIFKAM looks to me like a product
rushed to market to prevent MS getting left behind in the rush to tablets.
I appreciate that there will always be a lag on FOSS when the base OS is
upgraded. I asked my original question on here to find out whether this was
a known issue and whether anyone else has seen this (very minor) problem. I
have posted it as a bug though I am still not certain that it's not my
problem after all. My main intention is to help not complain, I'm sorry if
my comment about LO not being Windows 8 ready came across as a complaint.
Thank you all for the help and advice you provide. I wish I were able to
help more but I think my skills are now probably best suited to a museum!

I think you brought a valid issue that needs to be addressed by all software developers and making sure the end users understand how to use the software on Win8. It may be less of an issue for most FOSS projects because of their user base. Where I see a problem is with ordinary users who may be confused by schizophrenic nature of Win8 and what is meant by being compatible with it - there are two some what different definitions. As a Linux user I am not directly affected but I see user questions about Metro/Modern/Whatever integration vs the traditional desktop integration occurring.
As I said early if I am confused then think of the confusion of ordinary users who primarily see advertising and store displays. Given that many will buy a new computer with Win8 preinstalled and are probably talking to sales staff marginally more knowledgeable than them I see nothing but confusion.

-- Jay Lozier
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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